Controllers, efficiency, and power, oh my!

[Altema]

With apologies to those who brought us the Wizard of Oz 

I dug through my files and found my battery range test sheets. A blank spreadsheet is attached if anyone wants to know what type of data I collected. The efficiency of all four types of controllers I used is listed below. The reason I used watt hours instead of amp hours, is because amp hours is voltage dependent. A 14Ah battery will store more or less energy depending on the voltage, but 500 watt hours will always be the same amount regardless of voltage.

A stock Rad battery is 14Ah @ 48 volts nominal, which is 672 watt hours total. To get the range, divide the total watt hours of the battery into the watt hours per mile, and that will give you the maximum mileage for using the battery up. These tests were performed with conservative pedal assist (levels 2 and 3).

Power usage per mile, listed in order of testing.
Stock Rad controller: 16.8 watt hours per mile, 39.95 mile range at this rate of use.
25 amp controller: 26.88 watt hours per mile, 25 mile range at this rate of use.
35 amp controller: 22.4 watt hours per mile, 30 mile range at this rate of use.
Phaserunner controller: 20.5 watt hours per mile, 32.78 mile range at this rate of use.


Now, each controller has it's own power capacity, and that can make a big difference in range if you are joy riding with the throttle. Another list is below, but this time it's maximum power with the battery as used by me. The reason for the "observed" power is that electrical resistance and efficiency losses take a bite out of the mathematically perfect score, and will be lower. No "observed" power level for the Phaserunner because I don't own a motor that will handle that much. The Rad is hard limited to 750 watts day and night, and if struck by lightning, may go to 752 ⚡ .

16 amp Rad controller: 48 volts, limited to 750 watts
25 amp controller: 52 volts, 1300 watts, 1170 observed
35 amp controller: 52 volts, 1820 watts, 1741 observed.
96 amp Phaserunner controller: 52 volts, 4992 watts.

I just thought the info might be useful or entertaining to some, so let me know if you have any questions.

[JTK77]

With apologies to those who brought us the Wizard of Oz 

I dug through my files and found my battery range test sheets. A blank spreadsheet is attached if anyone wants to know what type of data I collected. The efficiency of all four types of controllers I used is listed below. The reason I used watt hours instead of amp hours, is because amp hours is voltage dependent. A 14Ah battery will store more or less energy depending on the voltage, but 500 watt hours will always be the same amount regardless of voltage.

A stock Rad battery is 14Ah @ 48 volts nominal, which is 672 watt hours total. To get the range, divide the total watt hours of the battery into the watt hours per mile, and that will give you the maximum mileage for using the battery up. These tests were performed with conservative pedal assist (levels 2 and 3).

Power usage per mile, listed in order of testing.
Stock Rad controller: 16.8 watt hours per mile, 39.95 mile range at this rate of use.
25 amp controller: 26.88 watt hours per mile, 25 mile range at this rate of use.
35 amp controller: 22.4 watt hours per mile, 30 mile range at this rate of use.
Phaserunner controller: 20.5 watt hours per mile, 32.78 mile range at this rate of use.


Now, each controller has it's own power capacity, and that can make a big difference in range if you are joy riding with the throttle. Another list is below, but this time it's maximum power with the battery as used by me. The reason for the "observed" power is that electrical resistance and efficiency losses take a bite out of the mathematically perfect score, and will be lower. No "observed" power level for the Phaserunner because I don't own a motor that will handle that much. The Rad is hard limited to 750 watts day and night, and if struck by lightning, may go to 752 ⚡ .

16 amp Rad controller: 48 volts, limited to 750 watts
25 amp controller: 52 volts, 1300 watts, 1170 observed
35 amp controller: 52 volts, 1820 watts, 1741 observed.
96 amp Phaserunner controller: 52 volts, 4992 watts.

I just thought the info might be useful or entertaining to some, so let me know if you have any questions.

Just a side note  Phaserunner is ~40-45A peak battery current and up to 96A phase current.
So @ 52v ~2700w peak.

[Altema]

Just a side note  Phaserunner is ~40-45A peak battery current and up to 96A phase current.
So @ 52v ~2700w peak.

Perhaps you are thinking of the lower capacity Baserunner? The Phaserunner software only permits settings in the allowable range, and the upper limit for peak battery current is 96.5 amps. They recommend 40 amps, but 96 is allowable. I have mine set to 60 amps, and have seen motor peaks of 2980 watts. However I may have overlooked something, and will double check.

[Ddaybc]

Altema, Thank you for your information. It's going to prove valuable to many people over time.

[JTK77]

Just a side note  Phaserunner is ~40-45A peak battery current and up to 96A phase current.
So @ 52v ~2700w peak.

Perhaps you are thinking of the lower capacity Baserunner? The Phaserunner software only permits settings in the allowable range, and the upper limit for peak battery current is 96.5 amps. They recommend 40 amps, but 96 is allowable. I have mine set to 60 amps, and have seen motor peaks of 2980 watts. However I may have overlooked something, and will double check.

No. Phaserunner is 96A phase current.
https://ebikes.ca/product-info/grin-products/phaserunner.html

[Altema]

Just a side note  Phaserunner is ~40-45A peak battery current and up to 96A phase current.
So @ 52v ~2700w peak.

Perhaps you are thinking of the lower capacity Baserunner? The Phaserunner software only permits settings in the allowable range, and the upper limit for peak battery current is 96.5 amps. They recommend 40 amps, but 96 is allowable. I have mine set to 60 amps, and have seen motor peaks of 2980 watts. However I may have overlooked something, and will double check.

No. Phaserunner is 96A phase current.
https://ebikes.ca/product-info/grin-products/phaserunner.html

I spoke to Grin Technologies, and the inventor of the Phaserunner himself has also looked at my configurations.

"The max battery amps for the Phaserunner is 96A"

The attached image is from their updated owners manual.

[JimInPT]

I spoke to Grin Technologies, and the inventor of the Phaserunner himself has also looked at my configurations.

"The max battery amps for the Phaserunner is 96A"

If anybody's tried that, I bet it would feel like strapping one of Wile E. Coyote's rockets to one's butt.

[Altema]

I spoke to Grin Technologies, and the inventor of the Phaserunner himself has also looked at my configurations.

"The max battery amps for the Phaserunner is 96A"

If anybody's tried that, I bet it would feel like strapping one of Wile E. Coyote's rockets to one's butt.

I wouldn't try it, at least not on a folding bike! I did try it at 2800 watts, and because of the mechanical advantage of the smaller wheel it felt like it was trying to pull out from under me. I backed it down to 2500 watts, or go down to 2000 watts with a smaller battery. I usually ride in the class 2 eco mode, or the 1200 watt midrange mode.

[JTK77]

Just a side note  Phaserunner is ~40-45A peak battery current and up to 96A phase current.
So @ 52v ~2700w peak.

Perhaps you are thinking of the lower capacity Baserunner? The Phaserunner software only permits settings in the allowable range, and the upper limit for peak battery current is 96.5 amps. They recommend 40 amps, but 96 is allowable. I have mine set to 60 amps, and have seen motor peaks of 2980 watts. However I may have overlooked something, and will double check.

No. Phaserunner is 96A phase current.
https://ebikes.ca/product-info/grin-products/phaserunner.html

I spoke to Grin Technologies, and the inventor of the Phaserunner himself has also looked at my configurations.

"The max battery amps for the Phaserunner is 96A"

The attached image is from their updated owners manual.

I know that theoretical figure but its nothing related to real life use (as you can see from suggested max battery DC setting and Phase current max).

[Altema]

Just a side note  Phaserunner is ~40-45A peak battery current and up to 96A phase current.
So @ 52v ~2700w peak.

Perhaps you are thinking of the lower capacity Baserunner? The Phaserunner software only permits settings in the allowable range, and the upper limit for peak battery current is 96.5 amps. They recommend 40 amps, but 96 is allowable. I have mine set to 60 amps, and have seen motor peaks of 2980 watts. However I may have overlooked something, and will double check.

No. Phaserunner is 96A phase current.
https://ebikes.ca/product-info/grin-products/phaserunner.html

I spoke to Grin Technologies, and the inventor of the Phaserunner himself has also looked at my configurations.

"The max battery amps for the Phaserunner is 96A"

The attached image is from their updated owners manual.

I know that theoretical figure but its nothing related to real life use (as you can see from suggested max battery DC setting and Phase current max).

You seem really stuck on this, but it's a peak figure and not a nominal or continuous rating. It's normal for such a device in a compact form factor. The bike is quicker than an Ariel Rider Grizzly, accelerates up 22% grades, climbs better than a Bafang BBS02 equipped mountain bike, and is faster than 90% of the commercial e-bikes sold in the US. All this with a controller that will fit in your pocket and doesn't scream "I've been modded!". Nope, it's not going to touch your bike, or a Sur Ron or Delfast, but it does an unexpectedly good job.

Anyway, thanks for all the interaction my friend, and perhaps I'll edit my original post to indicate those are peak and not continuous numbers.

[JTK77]

Just a side note  Phaserunner is ~40-45A peak battery current and up to 96A phase current.
So @ 52v ~2700w peak.

Perhaps you are thinking of the lower capacity Baserunner? The Phaserunner software only permits settings in the allowable range, and the upper limit for peak battery current is 96.5 amps. They recommend 40 amps, but 96 is allowable. I have mine set to 60 amps, and have seen motor peaks of 2980 watts. However I may have overlooked something, and will double check.

No. Phaserunner is 96A phase current.
https://ebikes.ca/product-info/grin-products/phaserunner.html

I spoke to Grin Technologies, and the inventor of the Phaserunner himself has also looked at my configurations.

"The max battery amps for the Phaserunner is 96A"

The attached image is from their updated owners manual.

I know that theoretical figure but its nothing related to real life use (as you can see from suggested max battery DC setting and Phase current max).

You seem really stuck on this, but it's a peak figure and not a nominal or continuous rating. It's normal for such a device in a compact form factor. The bike is quicker than an Ariel Rider Grizzly, accelerates up 22% grades, climbs better than a Bafang BBS02 equipped mountain bike, and is faster than 90% of the commercial e-bikes sold in the US. All this with a controller that will fit in your pocket and doesn't scream "I've been modded!". Nope, it's not going to touch your bike, or a Sur Ron or Delfast, but it does an unexpectedly good job.

Anyway, thanks for all the interaction my friend, and perhaps I'll edit my original post to indicate those are peak and not continuous numbers.

Sorry. I just find this perfect real world discussion (and nothing more) relating to phase amps and battery amps 

The thing what I tried to say is that Grin and the Phaserunner manual suggest setting peak battery current to maximum of 40A. Its technically possible to set it up to 96A but that does not mean the controller will now output 96A battery current. Why is this? Because phase current peak max is also 96A!! So in theory if the controller will hold and just do thermal rollout after some seconds you could peak ~76A battery current or 3850w with fully charger 52v battery.
The pictures are for Grins motor simulator which I use alot. First is the comparison of recommended max settings with Phaserunner vs 40A (battery) 96A (phase) controller. They are a match.
Second is theoretical 96A (battery) 96A (phase) compared to the previous 40A 96A.

[Altema]

Just a side note  Phaserunner is ~40-45A peak battery current and up to 96A phase current.
So @ 52v ~2700w peak.

Perhaps you are thinking of the lower capacity Baserunner? The Phaserunner software only permits settings in the allowable range, and the upper limit for peak battery current is 96.5 amps. They recommend 40 amps, but 96 is allowable. I have mine set to 60 amps, and have seen motor peaks of 2980 watts. However I may have overlooked something, and will double check.

No. Phaserunner is 96A phase current.
https://ebikes.ca/product-info/grin-products/phaserunner.html

I spoke to Grin Technologies, and the inventor of the Phaserunner himself has also looked at my configurations.

"The max battery amps for the Phaserunner is 96A"

The attached image is from their updated owners manual.

I know that theoretical figure but its nothing related to real life use (as you can see from suggested max battery DC setting and Phase current max).

You seem really stuck on this, but it's a peak figure and not a nominal or continuous rating. It's normal for such a device in a compact form factor. The bike is quicker than an Ariel Rider Grizzly, accelerates up 22% grades, climbs better than a Bafang BBS02 equipped mountain bike, and is faster than 90% of the commercial e-bikes sold in the US. All this with a controller that will fit in your pocket and doesn't scream "I've been modded!". Nope, it's not going to touch your bike, or a Sur Ron or Delfast, but it does an unexpectedly good job.

Anyway, thanks for all the interaction my friend, and perhaps I'll edit my original post to indicate those are peak and not continuous numbers.

Sorry. I just find this perfect real world discussion (and nothing more) relating to phase amps and battery amps 

The thing what I tried to say is that Grin and the Phaserunner manual suggest setting peak battery current to maximum of 40A. Its technically possible to set it up to 96A but that does not mean the controller will now output 96A battery current. Why is this? Because phase current peak max is also 96A!! So in theory if the controller will hold and just do thermal rollout after some seconds you could peak ~76A battery current or 3850w with fully charger 52v battery.
The pictures are for Grins motor simulator which I use alot. First is the comparison of recommended max settings with Phaserunner vs 40A (battery) 96A (phase) controller. They are a match.
Second is theoretical 96A (battery) 96A (phase) compared to the previous 40A 96A.

I get it, and it has been interesting. I'll take your simulations, and raise you real world usage
By the way, did you include 30 amps of field weakening?
I hit over 60 amps frequently, but with the bike getting up to speed in 4 seconds, there's not much need for sustained power except the last mile in traffic.
Just for fun, can you recommend another controller in the same form factor that does 60 amps? Grin is affected by the chip shortage and is substituting what they call the "Frankenrunner", which is significantly larger.

[JTK77]

Just a side note  Phaserunner is ~40-45A peak battery current and up to 96A phase current.
So @ 52v ~2700w peak.

Perhaps you are thinking of the lower capacity Baserunner? The Phaserunner software only permits settings in the allowable range, and the upper limit for peak battery current is 96.5 amps. They recommend 40 amps, but 96 is allowable. I have mine set to 60 amps, and have seen motor peaks of 2980 watts. However I may have overlooked something, and will double check.

No. Phaserunner is 96A phase current.
https://ebikes.ca/product-info/grin-products/phaserunner.html

I spoke to Grin Technologies, and the inventor of the Phaserunner himself has also looked at my configurations.

"The max battery amps for the Phaserunner is 96A"

The attached image is from their updated owners manual.

I know that theoretical figure but its nothing related to real life use (as you can see from suggested max battery DC setting and Phase current max).

You seem really stuck on this, but it's a peak figure and not a nominal or continuous rating. It's normal for such a device in a compact form factor. The bike is quicker than an Ariel Rider Grizzly, accelerates up 22% grades, climbs better than a Bafang BBS02 equipped mountain bike, and is faster than 90% of the commercial e-bikes sold in the US. All this with a controller that will fit in your pocket and doesn't scream "I've been modded!". Nope, it's not going to touch your bike, or a Sur Ron or Delfast, but it does an unexpectedly good job.

Anyway, thanks for all the interaction my friend, and perhaps I'll edit my original post to indicate those are peak and not continuous numbers.

Sorry. I just find this perfect real world discussion (and nothing more) relating to phase amps and battery amps 

The thing what I tried to say is that Grin and the Phaserunner manual suggest setting peak battery current to maximum of 40A. Its technically possible to set it up to 96A but that does not mean the controller will now output 96A battery current. Why is this? Because phase current peak max is also 96A!! So in theory if the controller will hold and just do thermal rollout after some seconds you could peak ~76A battery current or 3850w with fully charger 52v battery.
The pictures are for Grins motor simulator which I use alot. First is the comparison of recommended max settings with Phaserunner vs 40A (battery) 96A (phase) controller. They are a match.
Second is theoretical 96A (battery) 96A (phase) compared to the previous 40A 96A.

I get it, and it has been interesting. I'll take your simulations, and raise you real world usage
By the way, did you include 30 amps of field weakening?
I hit over 60 amps frequently, but with the bike getting up to speed in 4 seconds, there's not much need for sustained power except the last mile in traffic.
Just for fun, can you recommend another controller in the same form factor that does 60 amps? Grin is affected by the chip shortage and is substituting what they call the "Frankenrunner", which is significantly larger.

Yes for field weakening.
Phaserunner is absolutely one of the best in its class. Next step would be bigger Asibac

Btw. Tested today how winding temp rises when blasting 15 minutes on high power and speed. Temperature rise was from 60F (ambient) to 227F....casing temp ~100F.
Afterwards initial cooling was 12F per minute.

[Altema]

Just a side note  Phaserunner is ~40-45A peak battery current and up to 96A phase current.
So @ 52v ~2700w peak.

Perhaps you are thinking of the lower capacity Baserunner? The Phaserunner software only permits settings in the allowable range, and the upper limit for peak battery current is 96.5 amps. They recommend 40 amps, but 96 is allowable. I have mine set to 60 amps, and have seen motor peaks of 2980 watts. However I may have overlooked something, and will double check.

No. Phaserunner is 96A phase current.
https://ebikes.ca/product-info/grin-products/phaserunner.html

I spoke to Grin Technologies, and the inventor of the Phaserunner himself has also looked at my configurations.

"The max battery amps for the Phaserunner is 96A"

The attached image is from their updated owners manual.

I know that theoretical figure but its nothing related to real life use (as you can see from suggested max battery DC setting and Phase current max).

You seem really stuck on this, but it's a peak figure and not a nominal or continuous rating. It's normal for such a device in a compact form factor. The bike is quicker than an Ariel Rider Grizzly, accelerates up 22% grades, climbs better than a Bafang BBS02 equipped mountain bike, and is faster than 90% of the commercial e-bikes sold in the US. All this with a controller that will fit in your pocket and doesn't scream "I've been modded!". Nope, it's not going to touch your bike, or a Sur Ron or Delfast, but it does an unexpectedly good job.

Anyway, thanks for all the interaction my friend, and perhaps I'll edit my original post to indicate those are peak and not continuous numbers.

Sorry. I just find this perfect real world discussion (and nothing more) relating to phase amps and battery amps 

The thing what I tried to say is that Grin and the Phaserunner manual suggest setting peak battery current to maximum of 40A. Its technically possible to set it up to 96A but that does not mean the controller will now output 96A battery current. Why is this? Because phase current peak max is also 96A!! So in theory if the controller will hold and just do thermal rollout after some seconds you could peak ~76A battery current or 3850w with fully charger 52v battery.
The pictures are for Grins motor simulator which I use alot. First is the comparison of recommended max settings with Phaserunner vs 40A (battery) 96A (phase) controller. They are a match.
Second is theoretical 96A (battery) 96A (phase) compared to the previous 40A 96A.

I get it, and it has been interesting. I'll take your simulations, and raise you real world usage
By the way, did you include 30 amps of field weakening?
I hit over 60 amps frequently, but with the bike getting up to speed in 4 seconds, there's not much need for sustained power except the last mile in traffic.
Just for fun, can you recommend another controller in the same form factor that does 60 amps? Grin is affected by the chip shortage and is substituting what they call the "Frankenrunner", which is significantly larger.

Yes for field weakening.
Phaserunner is absolutely one of the best in its class. Next step would be bigger Asibac

Btw. Tested today how winding temp rises when blasting 15 minutes on high power and speed. Temperature rise was from 60F (ambient) to 227F....casing temp ~100F.
Afterwards initial cooling was 12F per minute.

Cool. That's great data on the temperature rise. I didn't think anyone else did the temperature drop per minute logging. The only motor I overheated was a Bolton "upgrade" motor, and that was using walk mode through snow, lol. Low RPM really had an impact.