Speed and responsibility

[Altema]

Hi Altema. Thanks for that explanation - makes perfect sense. I too have seen plenty of regular bikes blasting down bike paths, passing walkers and other bikers, with what seems to be no regard for others' safety. The challenge is how to encourage better road manners for all, since it is too easy for towns to just blame e-bikes. I'm not sure how to encourage better ridership, but it seems like we need to do something.

I agree, and I'm not completely sure how to encourage better ridership either, but perhaps it starts by being good examples.

[Altema]

OK, so let me start by saying I love my Radrunner Plus and love to ride. The whole e-bike industry has been a great thing for many riders. But I am trying to understand why so many owners are ready to mod their bikes as soon as they get them to make them go faster. I know, speed is fun, biking is fun. But if you want something that goes really, really fast - buy something designed for that speed, and drive it in a safe and legal way. Every time I turn around I see cities and towns banning e-bikes on bike paths and trails because riders are not respecting speed limits and are causing safety concerns. As an e-bike community, let's make sure our choices and behaviors support the industry and encourage local communities to embrace and encourage e-bike ridership rather than find new reasons to ban us!

I'm sure this post may kick up some strong opinions. I'm all ears and welcome respectful and constructive exchange.

This isn't exclusive to e-bikes or at least not in the USA.  People put ridiculous not street legal mods on their cars here but it kind of goes below the radar.  I'm not against that if they act responsibly. 

The problem with e-bikes  is they're new and with anything new people have fear because they don't know about it.  It's just like when cars came out people were scared that they were a danger to horses and many were against them.  If e-bikes ever become popular or somehow get mainstream attention that's when governments will look into regulating them.  All it's going to take is a fatal accident where an e-biker hits a pedestrian at 50 MPH on the sidewalk and there's going to be some serious motor vehicle like restrictions and requirements to operate one. 

The current class 1, 2 and 3 is a vague outline but isn't even close to being enough.  I think if e-bike companies were smart they would get ahead of this and create better standards as to what is an e-bike and what is an electric motorcycle (e-motorcycle?).  This would keep motorcycles off bicycle paths and allow a better relationship between e-bikers and traditional cyclists.  Right now that's not such a good relationship because of this fear I talked about.  More clear standards and information would prevent this.

Yes, people are quick to be afraid and condemn "new things". It's almost amusing to see a couple walking on a mixed use trail, and moments after they ignore a regular bike passing them, I'll approach at a slower speed than the regular bike did. I ring my cute little bell and announce "Passing on your left", and see the couple rush completely off the trail with one "protecting" the other in a defensive stance against the evil e-bike 🙄.

I think the three classes are pretty well defined, and in most US states if a two wheeler can do 30mph it's a moped, if it goes over 35mph, it's a motorcycle. The problem is lack of consistency in regulations from one location to another, and things that are 100% legal in some states are completely illegal in others. Then there's the independent rules for some trails, with odd things like asking you to disconnect your throttle because... why?

In an ideal world, a person would have two bikes: A class 1 or 2 for wherever bicycles are allowed, and a moped or motorcycle for high speed use. There's really no in-between where I live, as you either ride on sidewalks and trails with bikes and pedestrians, or you ride on the road and mix it up with the cars. There are companies with electric mopeds, like the Spark Cycleworks Bandit which comes with a VIN and all the safety equipment required for mopeds out of the box, and they will even program it specifically for the laws in your state. That would be a good option for some who want that 35mph top speed, but don't want to pay for motorcycle insurance.

[JimInPT]

Yes, people are quick to be afraid and condemn "new things". It's almost amusing to see a couple walking on a mixed use trail, and moments after they ignore a regular bike passing them, I'll approach at a slower speed than the regular bike did. I ring my cute little bell and announce "Passing on your left", and see the couple rush completely off the trail with one "protecting" the other in a defensive stance against the evil e-bike 🙄.

That happens to me occasionally around here; we have a lot of fear-porn people who cower at many things, including reacting as you describe on bike/horse/walking trails.  It's both amusing and annoying, and seems to be correlated with those who feel compelled to strap on their face diapers when outdoors in the sunshine and fresh air, even along the beach.

I'd say just ignore them, but these are the same Karens who get silly local laws passed against the many things they're unreasonably fearful of, so we should remain aware.

[Slowrider]

OK, so let me start by saying I love my Radrunner Plus and love to ride. The whole e-bike industry has been a great thing for many riders. But I am trying to understand why so many owners are ready to mod their bikes as soon as they get them to make them go faster. I know, speed is fun, biking is fun. But if you want something that goes really, really fast - buy something designed for that speed, and drive it in a safe and legal way. Every time I turn around I see cities and towns banning e-bikes on bike paths and trails because riders are not respecting speed limits and are causing safety concerns. As an e-bike community, let's make sure our choices and behaviors support the industry and encourage local communities to embrace and encourage e-bike ridership rather than find new reasons to ban us!

I'm sure this post may kick up some strong opinions. I'm all ears and welcome respectful and constructive exchange.

This isn't exclusive to e-bikes or at least not in the USA.  People put ridiculous not street legal mods on their cars here but it kind of goes below the radar.  I'm not against that if they act responsibly. 

The problem with e-bikes  is they're new and with anything new people have fear because they don't know about it.  It's just like when cars came out people were scared that they were a danger to horses and many were against them.  If e-bikes ever become popular or somehow get mainstream attention that's when governments will look into regulating them.  All it's going to take is a fatal accident where an e-biker hits a pedestrian at 50 MPH on the sidewalk and there's going to be some serious motor vehicle like restrictions and requirements to operate one. 

The current class 1, 2 and 3 is a vague outline but isn't even close to being enough.  I think if e-bike companies were smart they would get ahead of this and create better standards as to what is an e-bike and what is an electric motorcycle (e-motorcycle?).  This would keep motorcycles off bicycle paths and allow a better relationship between e-bikers and traditional cyclists.  Right now that's not such a good relationship because of this fear I talked about.  More clear standards and information would prevent this.

Yes, people are quick to be afraid and condemn "new things". It's almost amusing to see a couple walking on a mixed use trail, and moments after they ignore a regular bike passing them, I'll approach at a slower speed than the regular bike did. I ring my cute little bell and announce "Passing on your left", and see the couple rush completely off the trail with one "protecting" the other in a defensive stance against the evil e-bike 🙄.

I think the three classes are pretty well defined, and in most US states if a two wheeler can do 30mph it's a moped, if it goes over 35mph, it's a motorcycle. The problem is lack of consistency in regulations from one location to another, and things that are 100% legal in some states are completely illegal in others. Then there's the independent rules for some trails, with odd things like asking you to disconnect your throttle because... why?

In an ideal world, a person would have two bikes: A class 1 or 2 for wherever bicycles are allowed, and a moped or motorcycle for high speed use. There's really no in-between where I live, as you either ride on sidewalks and trails with bikes and pedestrians, or you ride on the road and mix it up with the cars. There are companies with electric mopeds, like the Spark Cycleworks Bandit which comes with a VIN and all the safety equipment required for mopeds out of the box, and they will even program it specifically for the laws in your state. That would be a good option for some who want that 35mph top speed, but don't want to pay for motorcycle insurance.

I just think the class thing looks like some e-bike exec had their kid write it up.  If you look at any other motor vehicle classification system it's not just three sentences.  It's like they're not taking it seriously and that's my issue.  How this usually works is when companies don't take stuff like this seriously it leaves governments wanting to step in.  It's a good start but I think it needs to be better. What I don't want to see is some politician that doesn't know anything about e-bikes making some law.

I think part of it could be e-bikes are usually more significant looking.  Sure you have those stealth e-bikes that look normal but for example my RadCity 5 looks much more impressive.  I think it's up to all of us to try and be on our best behavior since e-bikes are newish and sometimes you might be the first experience that person has with someone on an e-bike.  I try to be overly friendly and so far I've gotten positive responses.  If someone has a rotten attitude like a Karen I don't engage but just smile and say "Good morning" or whatever.

A big issue that's going to hit the fan with e-bikes is mods.  I know I'm going to get some hate for this one.  For example out of the box Rad bikes have a top speed of 20 MPH but with a few easy mods you can get that to 30 MPH.  That's a significant increase in speed.  Of course with a little bit of $$$$ it's not hard to bring it over 50 MPH.  This combined with no system of enforcement is just a bad situation. 

I'm really not against modding and I want a super fast e-bike but at what modification level do you say that's not allowed on a multi use trail with pedestrians and how do you even enforce that?  Before it was simple because if it had a motor it wasn't going on the sidewalk but an electric motor is treated differently.  I've seen a video of a guy with I want to say was a 2k watt e-bike getting questioned by the police and they didn't know how to deal with it.  He just said it was 750 watts and the cops were clueless.  He wasn't doing anything bad because he was on the road but it just shows it's like the wild west when it comes to regulations and laws.  I worry it's going to swing far the other way and e-bikes will only be allowed where other motorized vehicles can travel.  I guarantee you my local police officers don't know what class 2 means and would have no way to verify mine is indeed such a bike other than the sticker.  Do a quick search on Amazon for "Class 2 ebike sticker" and you'll see how meaningless that sticker is.

I wonder if when cars first came out people had these same discussions... Obviously not online 🤣

[NaturallyRC]

Great post, mtngrl. I just finished watching a slew of horrifying YouTubes of mass riders in California tearing up the streets on e-bikes that are really just motorcycles that happen to use a battery instead of gas (ask the infuriated public if they care where all the power comes from). My take-away is, thanks to these people, we're doomed. Registration, restrictions, and FEES are sure to come.

[NaturallyRC]

Well said.

What I don't want to see is some politician that doesn't know anything about e-bikes making some law. I think part of it could be e-bikes are usually more significant looking.  Sure you have those stealth e-bikes that look normal but for example my RadCity 5 looks much more impressive.  I think it's up to all of us to try and be on our best behavior since e-bikes are newish and sometimes you might be the first experience that person has with someone on an e-bike.

[Slowrider]

Great post, mtngrl. I just finished watching a slew of horrifying YouTubes of mass riders in California tearing up the streets on e-bikes that are really just motorcycles that happen to use a battery instead of gas (ask the infuriated public if they care where all the power comes from). My take-away is, thanks to these people, we're doomed. Registration, restrictions, and FEES are sure to come.

Yeah bad behavior like this tarnishes it for everyone in that group regardless if it's fair or not.  It's like when someone in a sport bike (motorcycle) acts like an idiot.  Most people say yup another idiot on a crotch rocket.  I really hope this doesn't happen with e-bikes.  If manufactures want to save this they need to set clear differences and standards. 

What is my Class 2 RadCity called after I mod it to go 40 MPH?  Is it still an e-bike?  I'd call it a moped, scooter, or motorcycle but I'm not anyone with the authority to do this.  We must make a distinction between low powered e-bikes that compare to pedal bikes and more powerful ones that compare to a scooter or even motorcycle.  This is not to bring any hate to the more powerful ones because we should encourage them too!  I think an e-bike/ e-moped like device that can go 40 MPH would be the ideal thing for city roads.  Classify those as road only vehicles while slower e-bikes and pedestrians can go on multi use trails.

Just to be clear I know we have class 1, 2 and 3 but what classification is a modded RadCity that goes 40 MPH?  It's not a motorcycle and you can't get plates for it at least in my state.  I'm not aware of it meeting any classification at that point and even the 1-3 thing isn't adopted nationwide in the USA.  As I set before we need an actual set standards that doesn't look like someones kid typed it for their homework assignment.  I think e-bikes will soon become a serious vehicle for transportation.  Just to clarify I can't speak for you guys in other countries because I have no idea what the e-bike situation is there so if what I'm saying doesn't apply to where you live then maybe it's fixed there.

[Radio Runner]

I wonder if when cars first came out people had these same discussions... Obviously not online 🤣

Actually when cars first came out it was much much worse. Cars were killing people left and right. Children being the biggest victim. Roads were not originally built for cars. They were for horses, pedestrians, carts and bicycles.

[NaturallyRC]

So agree. I'm the last one to call for more laws (really) but motorcycles ought to be regulated like...wait for it...motorcycles. People who want motorbike-like speed and acceleration should get a license and insurance, and ride where motorbikes are allowed (self-included). Gas, battery, flux capacitor -- all pointless distinctions. Until transportation officials wise up to a growing problem, the public cannot be blamed for wanting all powered two-wheelers kicked off trails and paths. Which is sad.

We must make a distinction between low powered e-bikes that compare to pedal bikes and more powerful ones that compare to a scooter or even motorcycle.  This is not to bring any hate to the more powerful ones because we should encourage them too!  I think an e-bike/ e-moped like device that can go 40 MPH would be the ideal thing for city roads.  Classify those as road only vehicles while slower e-bikes and pedestrians can go on multi use trails.

[Slowrider]

So agree. I'm the last one to call for more laws (really) but motorcycles ought to be regulated like...wait for it...motorcycles. People who want motorbike-like speed and acceleration should get a license and insurance, and ride where motorbikes are allowed (self-included). Gas, battery, flux capacitor -- all pointless distinctions. Until transportation officials wise up to a growing problem, the public cannot be blamed for wanting all powered two-wheelers kicked off trails and paths. Which is sad.

We must make a distinction between low powered e-bikes that compare to pedal bikes and more powerful ones that compare to a scooter or even motorcycle.  This is not to bring any hate to the more powerful ones because we should encourage them too!  I think an e-bike/ e-moped like device that can go 40 MPH would be the ideal thing for city roads.  Classify those as road only vehicles while slower e-bikes and pedestrians can go on multi use trails.

Well I think it comes down to what classification the vehicle is in.  I'm not sure it's sensible to put an e-bike/ moped or whatever it's called that can go 40 MPH in the same classification as a motorcycle that can go 100 MPH.  I think many states have something like a moped classification that doesn't require vehicle registration or license but you can't ride it on the sidewalk.  I don't think making more red tape for someone to own or operate is the answer but perhaps some operational guidelines and vehicle classifications. 

[mtblair]

This has become a very interesting thread. It makes me wonder what niche do ebikes serve?

I have a motorcycle and a Rad Mini ST. To legally ride the motorcycle here in Washington State, I have to take a class (or two) and pass one (or two) driving tests. I have to have a motorcycle endorsement on my driver's license. The bike has to be licensed and I have to carry insurance. Because of the risks of injury, I ride with a full-face helmet, leather jacket with enforced armor, reinforced riding jeans, ankle-high riding boots and reinforced riding gloves. It's about $1000 of riding gear.

To ride my Mini, I throw on my jeans, sweatshirt and bike helmet. No training, no licenses, no insurance. Off I go, out to the park or down to the store.

Now, upgrade the Mini to do 40 mph. It's likely that we'll find ourselves under the same regulations as the motorcycle rider. And I'm more likely to don a lot more gear at 40 mph. (I work in a hospital emergency room so I get to see what 40 mph road rash looks like versus 12 mph road rash).

At that point, I'm just going to ride the motorcycle and skip the ebike.

To avoid this, I think people need to have a clear understanding of what an ebike is and the niche it serves as a transportation device that maxes out at 20mph.

[JimInPT]

Now, upgrade the Mini to do 40 mph. It's likely that we'll find ourselves under the same regulations as the motorcycle rider. And I'm more likely to don a lot more gear at 40 mph. (I work in a hospital emergency room so I get to see what 40 mph road rash looks like versus 12 mph road rash).

Fortunately, upgrading an e-bike to hit 40 mph isn't as simple as just replacing the stock controller with a higher-amperage model (as I'm about to do for my MiniST with the Bolton upgrade to get more torque for hill-climbing and acceleration in traffic) - to increase top speed beyond the (unlocked) factory capability of about 25 mph with 750 watts, you need a new battery that outputs higher voltage as well as a new controller - the motor will spin faster with higher voltage, not higher amperage.  With proprietary Rad batteries, that's not so simple; the battery mount and wiring has to be reworked as well as the battery.  People do it, but they're more mechanically-talented than the average e-bike owner.  Check out CitizenCycle's YouTube channel for the 2-wheel-drive and battery mods he's made to a stock Rad Rover, for instance.  Now he's got an all-terrain beast.

Beyond riding at a much higher speed and being obnoxious about it, my biggest concern is the original design of the bike - frame materials and geometry, weld quality and especially the brakes are probably designed for loads and stresses up to maybe 30-35 mph or so, to provide a safety margin well above normal riding.  A heavy rider on a 40+ mph Mini would be a handful at that speed if the frame gets squirrelly over a rough surface or if a quick stop is needed.  That's small-motorcycle territory, as you've pointed out.

[NaturallyRC]

I'd be on your side if I thought there were a sure-fire way to keep that 40mph moped out of the bike lane and off the sidewalks. At the same time, confusion increases exponentially with every new sub-category, and people are going to throw rotten tomatoes at ebikes they mistake for mopeds on public trails. Hard to blame the tomato tossers. Cheers.

I'm not sure it's sensible to put an e-bike/ moped or whatever it's called that can go 40 MPH in the same classification as a motorcycle that can go 100 MPH.  I think many states have something like a moped classification that doesn't require vehicle registration or license but you can't ride it on the sidewalk.  I don't think making more red tape for someone to own or operate is the answer but perhaps some operational guidelines and vehicle classifications.

[NaturallyRC]

An expert opinion worth remembering. Thumbs up.

(I work in a hospital emergency room so I get to see what 40 mph road rash looks like versus 12 mph road rash).

[Slowrider]

Now, upgrade the Mini to do 40 mph. It's likely that we'll find ourselves under the same regulations as the motorcycle rider. And I'm more likely to don a lot more gear at 40 mph. (I work in a hospital emergency room so I get to see what 40 mph road rash looks like versus 12 mph road rash).

At that point, I'm just going to ride the motorcycle and skip the ebike.

To avoid this, I think people need to have a clear understanding of what an ebike is and the niche it serves as a transportation device that maxes out at 20mph.

I don't work in an ER but I've had one 35 MPH road rash and plenty of slowish 10-15 MPH road rashes and I can tell you there's a SIGNIFICANT difference... That 35 MPH road rash was over 20 years ago and it still makes me cringe thinking about it.  This is one reason I'm not in a big hurry to make my Rad go faster.

One thing many people don't understand is even a small increase in speed from 20 MPH to 30 MPH makes a big difference.  It's only 50% faster when it comes to speed but it's over double the impact force when you crash.  Perhaps someone with more knowledge in physics can explain why this is but it's a real thing so take it seriously if you decide to go faster.  Perhaps wear more protection or use a bit more caution.