IS IT A 750 WATT MOTOR OR NOT???

[JimInPT]

I was using an aftermarket controller, and the Rad motor handled all that power fine.

Would you mind linking to a thread where you spec out the upgrade parts, controller, display etc?  I may have run across it already, but it's lost in the mists of my ever-older brain.  Thanks.

[DickB]

There is no reason in the world for anyone to freak out over this, because it will handle 1641 watts all day long and deliver 104nm of torque.

I question your 1642W figure. The controller does limit power to the motor to 750W.

Dick, I believe Altema has upgraded his controller to 35A and was using that to drive the stock motor.  In his other thread comments, he said he was actually testing to see if he could fail the stock motor with 1,600w input and could not - the motor is fine.

Yes, Jim is absolutely correct. I was using an aftermarket controller, and the Rad motor handled all that power fine. The nominal rating of a motor is the amount of power it will handle at 100% duty cycle without exceeding thermal gain parameters. It's science, and going on "looks" is not.
By the way, attached is a screen capture from the video of one of my acceleration test runs, with the Rad motor peaking at 1746 watts.

I understand peak versus sustainable. I was questioning the "it will handle 1641 watts all day long" statement.

[chris1683]

It is not. Here is a photo of the internal motor from my US RadRover purchased in July 2021. It is in fact a 350W Bafang motor disguised in a Rad Power Bikes outer motor casing.  Disappointing since it's advertised as a 750W "motor". 

I realize it might be able to peak at 750W but it's still a 350W motor any way you slice it. 

It's also only rated at a MAXIMUM torque of 45 N.m on Bafang's website. Rad advertises 80 N.m. 


https://bafang-e.com/oem-area/components/component/motor/rm-g020350ddc/

That's not the normal motor used in Rad's US bikes, but it is possible your clutch plate was substituted since they are interchangeable, or someone shipped you a EU spec bike despite you ordering a US version. The G020350 is a physically smaller motor.

A genuine Rad 750 watt motor is built on the Bafang 500w core, but is custom wound for higher power using a . There is no reason in the world for anyone to freak out over this, because it will handle 1641 watts all day long and deliver 104nm of torque. I didn't get that off the internet or pre-build data sheets... I'm an engineer and tested it myself. As a matter of fact, the US Rad motor has more torque than the Bolton upgrade motor, and is more reliable.

Whether or not it was the normal motor used in Rad's US bikes, that's what came inside of my brand new RR5.  It came in a US labeled box and the controller peaked at 750W which is what the US version is touted as having. 

As far as interchanging parts, I find that hard to believe as nothing else on the motor would tell what version that it is.  It has no distinct "Rad" labeling on the inner motor itself.  The only thing "Rad" about the motor was the custom outer casing that the motor was fitted into. 

I would expect any reasonable person to question what they are getting when they open a supposed 750W motor and find a motor in its place that's stamped as being a 350W motor.  I just call it as I see it.  Rad was given the same photos and they offered no information as to it being a non-US version bike.  They also would not confirm whether it was a 350, 500 or 750 watt motor as it was designed, only that their motors can "handle" 750W of power. 

Rad went as far as to have Bafang draw up a letter which said the following:  "the customized motors made by Bafang exclusively for Rad are rated as 750W geared hub motors based on the testing standard that this customized motor can handle 750W of power input without overheating"

In plain terms, I read that as we can run 750W to it and it won't hurt it, so we can rate it as 750W.  That being said, if I take a core 350W motor and run 750W through it, it still doesn't make it a core 750W motor - regardless of whether or not it can safely handle the extra wattage. 

Again, this would never be an issue to me except that the motor on my RR5 is stamped as being a 350W motor. 

Last I just wanted to share another reply from someone over at Rad's Legal Team regarding this same issue.  In the letter it stated "Neither the CPSC regulations on ebikes nor the industry standard (UL 2849, the voluntary industry standard for safety for electrical systems for ebikes) specifies a test methodology for measuring the power input/output of a motor:  As a result, both the regulation and the voluntary standard rely on the certification seeker (Rad, in this case) to establish the motor rating."

According to that standard, you can start with any sized core motor - a 350W per say, and if it can handle 750W and not overheat....Hey we can label it as a rated 750W motor and sell it that way!  Is it now technically a 750W motor or is it sill a 350W as it was made?  That is the real question.  If it can handle 1000W is it then a rated 1000W geared hub motor? 

[Joel52334]

To further cloud the issue, I recently saw a simple add-on "mid-drive motor" that uses the crank housing as the mount point.  Wouldn't that be a beast?  Why not also add a front motor too? 

I've also seen YT's of folks using a Bafang internal motor, placed into the direct drive, and a planetary gear motor.  The replacement being MUCH BEEFIER!
RPB is very lax in giving out specifics on specifications.

I've talked to the HexLox guys, they can't get specifics on the RPB bolts.  I'd have to measure every bolt diameter, to get a full set of locks.  That's just a simple reciprocal agreement to give each other better service.  Just call & say "I have an RW4", they could offer you a complete set.  WHY NOT?

[Altema]

There is no reason in the world for anyone to freak out over this, because it will handle 1641 watts all day long and deliver 104nm of torque.

I question your 1642W figure. The controller does limit power to the motor to 750W.

Dick, I believe Altema has upgraded his controller to 35A and was using that to drive the stock motor.  In his other thread comments, he said he was actually testing to see if he could fail the stock motor with 1,600w input and could not - the motor is fine.

Yes, Jim is absolutely correct. I was using an aftermarket controller, and the Rad motor handled all that power fine. The nominal rating of a motor is the amount of power it will handle at 100% duty cycle without exceeding thermal gain parameters. It's science, and going on "looks" is not.
By the way, attached is a screen capture from the video of one of my acceleration test runs, with the Rad motor peaking at 1746 watts.

I understand peak versus sustainable. I was questioning the "it will handle 1641 watts all day long" statement.

That would be real world use, and not on a dyno. In real world use it's impossible to sustain that figure because you will either reach the programmed top speed and the controller will pull back power, or the motor will approach it's no-load RPM and the power usage will fall off naturally. Now if you are going mountain climbing at full throttle, that would be an exception, but I don't know of anybody that would do that. I have done extended hill climb tests, holding the throttle wide open for several minutes at a time, and the Bolton motor (RM G060.750.D 06) got hotter than the Rad motor. So even though it won't handle 1641 watts all day long on a dyno or other artificial environments, in actual use you can set the power levels that high and never have a problem.

[Altema]

It is not. Here is a photo of the internal motor from my US RadRover purchased in July 2021. It is in fact a 350W Bafang motor disguised in a Rad Power Bikes outer motor casing.  Disappointing since it's advertised as a 750W "motor". 

I realize it might be able to peak at 750W but it's still a 350W motor any way you slice it. 

It's also only rated at a MAXIMUM torque of 45 N.m on Bafang's website. Rad advertises 80 N.m. 


https://bafang-e.com/oem-area/components/component/motor/rm-g020350ddc/

That's not the normal motor used in Rad's US bikes, but it is possible your clutch plate was substituted since they are interchangeable, or someone shipped you a EU spec bike despite you ordering a US version. The G020350 is a physically smaller motor.

A genuine Rad 750 watt motor is built on the Bafang 500w core, but is custom wound for higher power using a . There is no reason in the world for anyone to freak out over this, because it will handle 1641 watts all day long and deliver 104nm of torque. I didn't get that off the internet or pre-build data sheets... I'm an engineer and tested it myself. As a matter of fact, the US Rad motor has more torque than the Bolton upgrade motor, and is more reliable.

Whether or not it was the normal motor used in Rad's US bikes, that's what came inside of my brand new RR5.  It came in a US labeled box and the controller peaked at 750W which is what the US version is touted as having. 

As far as interchanging parts, I find that hard to believe as nothing else on the motor would tell what version that it is.  It has no distinct "Rad" labeling on the inner motor itself.  The only thing "Rad" about the motor was the custom outer casing that the motor was fitted into. 

I would expect any reasonable person to question what they are getting when they open a supposed 750W motor and find a motor in its place that's stamped as being a 350W motor.  I just call it as I see it.  Rad was given the same photos and they offered no information as to it being a non-US version bike.  They also would not confirm whether it was a 350, 500 or 750 watt motor as it was designed, only that their motors can "handle" 750W of power. 

Rad went as far as to have Bafang draw up a letter which said the following:  "the customized motors made by Bafang exclusively for Rad are rated as 750W geared hub motors based on the testing standard that this customized motor can handle 750W of power input without overheating"

In plain terms, I read that as we can run 750W to it and it won't hurt it, so we can rate it as 750W.  That being said, if I take a core 350W motor and run 750W through it, it still doesn't make it a core 750W motor - regardless of whether or not it can safely handle the extra wattage. 

Again, this would never be an issue to me except that the motor on my RR5 is stamped as being a 350W motor. 

Last I just wanted to share another reply from someone over at Rad's Legal Team regarding this same issue.  In the letter it stated "Neither the CPSC regulations on ebikes nor the industry standard (UL 2849, the voluntary industry standard for safety for electrical systems for ebikes) specifies a test methodology for measuring the power input/output of a motor:  As a result, both the regulation and the voluntary standard rely on the certification seeker (Rad, in this case) to establish the motor rating."

According to that standard, you can start with any sized core motor - a 350W per say, and if it can handle 750W and not overheat....Hey we can label it as a rated 750W motor and sell it that way!  Is it now technically a 750W motor or is it sill a 350W as it was made?  That is the real question.  If it can handle 1000W is it then a rated 1000W geared hub motor?

If you're not happy with the bike then send it back. You turn the throttle and get 750 watts, and Rad stands behind it with a full warranty. I really don't see the issue. I'd be concerned if it was Super73 RX claiming 2000 watts peak, and it gets blown away by a RadMini. I'd be concerned if it was a Lectric XP and kept shutting off due to overheating. I'd be concerned if it was an Ariel Rider Grizzly, and BOTH controllers and the motor failed doing what the bike is advertised to do. But a bike that is doing it's job, and being more reliable than many competitors, is not a big deal.

[mbates50]

There is no reason in the world for anyone to freak out over this, because it will handle 1641 watts all day long and deliver 104nm of torque.

I question your 1642W figure. The controller does limit power to the motor to 750W.

Dick, I believe Altema has upgraded his controller to 35A and was using that to drive the stock motor.  In his other thread comments, he said he was actually testing to see if he could fail the stock motor with 1,600w input and could not - the motor is fine.

Yes, Jim is absolutely correct. I was using an aftermarket controller, and the Rad motor handled all that power fine. The nominal rating of a motor is the amount of power it will handle at 100% duty cycle without exceeding thermal gain parameters. It's science, and going on "looks" is not.
By the way, attached is a screen capture from the video of one of my acceleration test runs, with the Rad motor peaking at 1746 watts.

Question for you Altema. My Rover 5 has the stock motor but I upgraded to the Bolton controller which really increases output. Do I need to be careful not to burn out this 500 watt motor?

[Altema]

There is no reason in the world for anyone to freak out over this, because it will handle 1641 watts all day long and deliver 104nm of torque.

I question your 1642W figure. The controller does limit power to the motor to 750W.

Dick, I believe Altema has upgraded his controller to 35A and was using that to drive the stock motor.  In his other thread comments, he said he was actually testing to see if he could fail the stock motor with 1,600w input and could not - the motor is fine.

Yes, Jim is absolutely correct. I was using an aftermarket controller, and the Rad motor handled all that power fine. The nominal rating of a motor is the amount of power it will handle at 100% duty cycle without exceeding thermal gain parameters. It's science, and going on "looks" is not.
By the way, attached is a screen capture from the video of one of my acceleration test runs, with the Rad motor peaking at 1746 watts.

Question for you Altema. My Rover 5 has the stock motor but I upgraded to the Bolton controller which really increases output. Do I need to be careful not to burn out this 500 watt motor?

You can call it what you want, but I'll put it this way: The stock Rad motor handles power better than the Bolton upgrade motor.
I have three failed Bolton motors. The stock Rad motor is still working like new.

Fun fact: Did you know that Kyle, the owner of Bolton E-bikes, the one who made the video to sell his motors, does not know the specifications of his own motor or the Rad motor? Seriously. I asked him directly and he had no idea. He does now, but only because I measured it and sent the information back to him.

[mbates50]

There is no reason in the world for anyone to freak out over this, because it will handle 1641 watts all day long and deliver 104nm of torque.

I question your 1642W figure. The controller does limit power to the motor to 750W.

Dick, I believe Altema has upgraded his controller to 35A and was using that to drive the stock motor.  In his other thread comments, he said he was actually testing to see if he could fail the stock motor with 1,600w input and could not - the motor is fine.

Yes, Jim is absolutely correct. I was using an aftermarket controller, and the Rad motor handled all that power fine. The nominal rating of a motor is the amount of power it will handle at 100% duty cycle without exceeding thermal gain parameters. It's science, and going on "looks" is not.
By the way, attached is a screen capture from the video of one of my acceleration test runs, with the Rad motor peaking at 1746 watts.

Question for you Altema. My Rover 5 has the stock motor but I upgraded to the Bolton controller which really increases output. Do I need to be careful not to burn out this 500 watt motor?

You can call it what you want, but I'll put it this way: The stock Rad motor handles power better than the Bolton upgrade motor.
I have three failed Bolton motors. The stock Rad motor is still working like new.

Fun fact: Did you know that Kyle, the owner of Bolton E-bikes, the one who made the video to sell his motors, does not know the specifications of his own motor or the Rad motor? Seriously. I asked him directly and he had no idea. He does now, but only because I measured it and sent the information back to him.

Thanks. Apparently from what you are saying, the Bolton 35A controller will most likely have no affect on the OEM Rad Rover motor. Is that correct? ( your fun fact is not surprising!!!)

[Altema]

I was using an aftermarket controller, and the Rad motor handled all that power fine.

Would you mind linking to a thread where you spec out the upgrade parts, controller, display etc?  I may have run across it already, but it's lost in the mists of my ever-older brain.  Thanks.

Here's my "review" of the 22 amp controller upgrade, however I don't think it includes a parts list. I thought I did make a list, but I can't find it after searching. Perhaps I'll throw a list together. The bike is on it's 5th controller and motor now, lol.

https://www.radowners.com/index.php?topic=589.0

[Altema]

There is no reason in the world for anyone to freak out over this, because it will handle 1641 watts all day long and deliver 104nm of torque.

I question your 1642W figure. The controller does limit power to the motor to 750W.

Dick, I believe Altema has upgraded his controller to 35A and was using that to drive the stock motor.  In his other thread comments, he said he was actually testing to see if he could fail the stock motor with 1,600w input and could not - the motor is fine.

Yes, Jim is absolutely correct. I was using an aftermarket controller, and the Rad motor handled all that power fine. The nominal rating of a motor is the amount of power it will handle at 100% duty cycle without exceeding thermal gain parameters. It's science, and going on "looks" is not.
By the way, attached is a screen capture from the video of one of my acceleration test runs, with the Rad motor peaking at 1746 watts.

Question for you Altema. My Rover 5 has the stock motor but I upgraded to the Bolton controller which really increases output. Do I need to be careful not to burn out this 500 watt motor?

You can call it what you want, but I'll put it this way: The stock Rad motor handles power better than the Bolton upgrade motor.
I have three failed Bolton motors. The stock Rad motor is still working like new.

Fun fact: Did you know that Kyle, the owner of Bolton E-bikes, the one who made the video to sell his motors, does not know the specifications of his own motor or the Rad motor? Seriously. I asked him directly and he had no idea. He does now, but only because I measured it and sent the information back to him.

Thanks. Apparently from what you are saying, the Bolton 35A controller will most likely have no affect on the OEM Rad Rover motor. Is that correct? ( your fun fact is not surprising!!!)

The Bolton 35A controller will most likely have no negative effect on the OEM Rad Rover motor. I ran that combination for 400 miles, and I was pretty abusive. If it was someone else's bike, I'd be ashamed of myself 😄

PS: Kyle is a great guy, and helped me a lot with the KT-LCD3 display settings at first. I was just surprised.

[JimInPT]

Altema, would you mind posting a summary list of your mod parts for the upgrade?  I think it's just a Bolton 35A controller and display, right?  (If so, did you go with the newer color display and is it readable in sunlight?)  I'm getting a bit lost in all the various threads and postings.  And do I remember you modded a MiniST like mine?  Did you have to rework any connectors or other wiring?

And if not too much trouble, a couple pics of the controller/display mountings would be helpful.  Yep, I'm willing to let you do all the R&D work for us.     But if it makes you feel any better, I've posted a number of pics and tips along the way on other topics......

[mbates50]

I can tell you that the Bolton KT8 display, (color), is very readable in SoCal sunlight.

[JimInPT]

I can tell you that the Bolton KT8 display, (color), is very readable in SoCal sunlight.

Thanks!  They currently mention a color display model LCD8H as part of their upgrade.  Hope it's similar, but haven't ordered yet.

UPDATE 9 Oct: Just ordered the upgrade kit for delivery in January.  Watched a few CitizenCycle and Bolton vids and had a chat session with Bolton, seemed to answer all my questions.  I think the only issues will be daylight visibility of the color display and a clean mounting arrangement for the new controller - considering using a "controller box" made of plastic Chineseium for water resistance and appearance, but concerned about heat buildup if I go that route.

Kyle's company Bolton seems to be doing pretty well; glad to see that.

[JimInPT]

Here's my "review" of the 22 amp controller upgrade, however I don't think it includes a parts list. I thought I did make a list, but I can't find it after searching. Perhaps I'll throw a list together. The bike is on it's 5th controller and motor now, lol.

https://www.radowners.com/index.php?topic=589.0

I just ordered the 35A controller/display upgrade from Bolton to lash onto my MiniST (probably after the warranty expires in March, and not expecting delivery on the upgrade until January anyway); could have gotten cheaper elsewhere but I've gotten so much from Kyle's vids and wanted to kick back a little bit.  A little concerned the display cable shipping now might still be a bit too short, but I'll find out when it gets here and pinged Bolton to inquire about that issue to see if it still exists.

Now I'm speculating - with all the motors/controllers you've tried, have you ever noticed any problems as a result of the significantly-increased torque?  Specifically, loose or bowed spokes, excessive tire wear - that sort of thing?  My guess is that there's enough design margin in the wheels to handle a bit more, but how much more would be the issue.

Thanks!